Highlander 2E Constructed Southwest Regional
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Post by 5thhorsemen on Apr 20, 2009 12:44:44 GMT -5
I agree that it should have been stated in the previous thread about arranging qualifiers. Or at least reiterated. I am sorry you feel insulted. Know that I am not accusing you of anything only stating that I agree it should be the way the design team wants it and know that it has again been stated publicly, we should not argue there wishes but simply follow through with them.
"The Dude"
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Post by swisherfan on Apr 20, 2009 12:51:26 GMT -5
I agree that it should have been stated in the previous thread about arranging qualifiers. Or at least reiterated. I am sorry you feel insulted. Know that I am not accusing you of anything only stating that I agree it should be the way the design team wants it and know that it has again been stated publicly, we should not argue there wishes but simply follow through with them. "The Dude" Definitely not upset with you...my comment was directed at other posts previously in the thread. You have always been an upstanding member of the boards and the community. I just disliked getting the "Swiss hate" from others when I feel that it never said for us to do otherwise. It is no surprise to anyone that I prefer Swiss and feel that it could be made into a vastly superior system for our growing game, but others disagree and I have not brought it up since those threads last year.
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Post by Tim Small on Apr 20, 2009 12:56:44 GMT -5
Double elimination is what makes Highlander competitive. Swiss, especially with the point system you all were using, rewards you for chump smacking any new or casual player with over-valued head shots. At least you have to earn it in double-elim. The best deck usually ends up winning. I am curious how you handle losing Qs in Swiss though when the Q effects deck construction. Hey Founding...adults are talking here. You have to "Earn it" more in Swiss then in Double Elim. You want an example...here ya go. 8 players in double elim. Round 1, 3 of the 4 opponents lose their head. The 1 loser who kept his head now sails to through the losers bracket. In Swiss you play players with similar records throughout the tournament. There is a reason double elimination is not the way in every other card game out there. Highlander can pretend it needs Double Elim, but all that tells me is that the same people are making the same mistakes that killed it the first time around. I think we know who started the name calling...The question is are you going to stop....
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Post by prowler7 on Apr 20, 2009 13:21:03 GMT -5
Now that everyone present has calmed down....
It wasnt made clear by the Design Team that Double Elimination was required. With that in mind, we DID NOT invalidate your tournament OR your win. Both are perfectly valid, we are not and will not dispute that. We stated that in the future all of these types of events are required to be Double Elimination.
Name calling and such wasnt productive by either side, I think we can all understand and agree with that.
Swiss Format and Round Robin are both popular formats used by Highlander groups for local tournaments, with the companies blessing. We are NOT trying to tell you how to run your regular local events. We only require Double Elimination for the "Big" events, like Championships (state, regional, country, continental, world) and Qualifiers. I am sorry that wasnt made perfectly clear.
With that out of the way, lets all get on to the business of taking heads.
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webtroll
Ancient Immortal
There can be only one... braaaain...
Posts: 497
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Post by webtroll on Apr 20, 2009 13:28:23 GMT -5
I second the "getting on to the business of taking heads" and will promote my support of this by taking The German Kid's head this week... again... like the week before that too...
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Post by scottkoeppel on Apr 20, 2009 13:45:01 GMT -5
After reading through this I don't understand what your problem is with double elimination. Are you claiming that people quit because of the double elimination format? Really?? If you have the best deck and you go undefeated you win. You could also have a terrible draw lose early and still make your way back up and win the entire thing. Some people could show up lose their head and only get to play once, but its a regional tourney. If you want to run swiss in smaller local tournaments so everyone gets to play a minimum number of games that's cool.
I have always liked that highlander uses double elimination for its major tournaments because it is different from every other card game. What's the most popular post season sports tournament? That's right the NCAA tournament. Sure it's single elimination, but it’s still an elimination format tournament and that is what makes it so exciting. Lose and you’re out!
If you need to result to name calling to prove a point you've already lost. I hope to see everyone at gencon and I hope you bring the nastiest decks that you can think of.
Later Scott
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Post by swisherfan on Apr 20, 2009 13:49:28 GMT -5
I am always trying to be nice, politically correct and take people at their word...but, wow, your a jackass. That is all I have to say to you about this. This subject should have been closed hours ago, not to mention...you should be banned and your friend too. Don't toss around the ban hammer when we are upset that "The Design Team" made a mistake and then "lets it slide" like you are doing us a favor. I wrote a nice tournament report and then had the Swiss format reamed, my honesty questioned, my deck insulted, and then told I should be banned. Maybe I am upset. I don't think I can "acoid" getting upset here. I can understand Wilson being upset too (although sometimes he rages a bit much). Wilson has spent tons of money on a game that has printing errors, spelling mistakes, quality control, and significant rulings needed for EVERY set. Every...single...set. So maybe, you can understand that he, just like Scottr and Thorr before him are leaving a game that cannot acknowledge that it needs more people on "The Design Team" then your little inner circle. Wilson has a passion for the game to help it improve. It is obvious that the issues stated above are not being improved and maybe "The Design Team" needs to take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask why.
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Post by prowler7 on Apr 20, 2009 14:09:30 GMT -5
I wrote a nice tournament report and then had the Swiss format reamed, my honesty questioned, my deck insulted, and then told I should be banned. You may want to go back and read the thread. NOTHING was said against Swiss UNTIL you and Cat had BOTH badmouthed Double Elimination (the first 3 posts after my first post). Since the Design Team is owning up to THIER part in this, you may want to own up to your part as well and let this whole thing drop. Things said towards you were nothing worse than things you were saying to others, including uncalled for derogatory remarks regarding people with disabilities participating in sporting events.
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Post by brendanparochelli on Apr 20, 2009 14:14:55 GMT -5
I am pretty sure all the Design team did was state that they will let it slide and from now on only Double Elimination will be sactioned for regionals. Prowler was pretty nice about it I thought.
I on the other hand DID insinuate that your deck was awful and that you are possibly dishonest.
Of course, all that was after being called a Foundling Special Olympic winning retard from the Midwest. It is pretty laughable that you keep trying to claim the moral high ground after making all those comments.
Anyway, I only have one last thing to say. I won't post again. I will PayPal you 10 dollars if you explain to me how your Swiss format addresses people losing Qs via head shot. A lot of head shots were being reported and I have a hard time believing no one lost a Q in a regional. I really am curious. PM me your PayPal address or put it in the response.
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Post by Tim Small on Apr 20, 2009 14:26:44 GMT -5
I am saying that the Ban Hammer should be flown around casually, but throwing insults around and showing a disregard to the forum rules is no way to make your case. Saying the design team is clueless, is also not a way to make your point.
A simple discussion could have mitigated through the forums, but you debased it like most web forums by letting your passion for the game take it's route.
I was upset that you were name calling, but the thing that got me aggrivated about the entire thing was that you were not stopping to make your point. I disagree with your Swiss format for a couple of reason for Regionals and I will point them out here:
1. Double Elimination allows the stronger decks to compete in the upper bracket. 2. If a stronger deck is pushed out by a one trick pony or a bad draw, it still has the ability to win. 3. It matches with the "There can be only one!" montage of the series. 4. This format allows standing brackets which coinside with your ranking better then swiss.
Problem I see with Swiss: 1. You can have TIES, no, if's, and's or but's. 2. You play x amount of players and that is it, you can get shafted out of the tournament by one unlucky match. 3. Quickenings become an issue when your head is taken. 4. Head shots are supposed to take you out of the tournament. In swiss, this can be done, but causes havoc on your brackets. 5. Swiss has the issue that it has no way for a deck that lost to you (due to bad draw) to come back and clean your clock.
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Post by Brent Bailey on Apr 20, 2009 15:04:48 GMT -5
Some sports use double elimination. The World Cup in their semi-final rounds. The world baseball classic and the Rugby World Cup. I think the Cricket one does too, but I'd have to brush up on my rules there.
...but then again they run swiss in the opening rounds...
That being said, as the design and rules team, its impossible to please everyone. If we make it swiss, DE players are upset. If we make it DE, swiss players are upset. So, we made the tournament call for all major regionals and nationals tourneys to be double elimination, because, in our opinion, that more closely follows the spirit of Highlander.
Personally, when I have six or fewer players at a local event, I run a round robin so that everyone gets four or five games. If we have seven or more, then its DE. Our group also doesn't kick people out when we take a head in the winner's bracket. Maybe they have to concede to you if they meet again, but at least they get to play more games.
There's no right or wrong here, but there is a way that city reps will be asked to run all major tournaments, and that is double elimination. For your local weekly or monthly tourneys, swiss is fine and actually makes more sense if you don't have seven or more players.
Thanks,
Brent
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Post by swisherfan on Apr 20, 2009 15:15:50 GMT -5
I am saying that the Ban Hammer should be flown around casually, but throwing insults around and showing a disregard to the forum rules is no way to make your case. Saying the design team is clueless, is also not a way to make your point. A simple discussion could have mitigated through the forums, but you debased it like most web forums by letting your passion for the game take it's route. I was upset that you were name calling, but the thing that got me aggrivated about the entire thing was that you were not stopping to make your point. I disagree with your Swiss format for a couple of reason for Regionals and I will point them out here: 1. Double Elimination allows the stronger decks to compete in the upper bracket. 2. If a stronger deck is pushed out by a one trick pony or a bad draw, it still has the ability to win. 3. It matches with the "There can be only one!" montage of the series. 4. This format allows standing brackets which coinside with your ranking better then swiss. Problem I see with Swiss: 1. You can have TIES, no, if's, and's or but's. 2. You play x amount of players and that is it, you can get shafted out of the tournament by one unlucky match. 3. Quickenings become an issue when your head is taken. 4. Head shots are supposed to take you out of the tournament. In swiss, this can be done, but causes havoc on your brackets. 5. Swiss has the issue that it has no way for a deck that lost to you (due to bad draw) to come back and clean your clock. I think your understanding of swiss is very distorted from what it really is Tim. I will try one more time to write about how it works with examples because every negative you are giving it is something that is not true.
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Post by swisherfan on Apr 20, 2009 15:16:16 GMT -5
I am pretty sure all the Design team did was state that they will let it slide and from now on only Double Elimination will be sactioned for regionals. Prowler was pretty nice about it I thought. I on the other hand DID insinuate that your deck was awful and that you are possibly dishonest. Of course, all that was after being called a Foundling Special Olympic winning retard from the Midwest. It is pretty laughable that you keep trying to claim the moral high ground after making all those comments. Anyway, I only have one last thing to say. I won't post again. I will PayPal you 10 dollars if you explain to me how your Swiss format addresses people losing Qs via head shot. A lot of head shots were being reported and I have a hard time believing no one lost a Q in a regional. I really am curious. PM me your PayPal address or put it in the response. I will PM you...no money required.
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Post by prowler7 on Apr 20, 2009 16:10:34 GMT -5
. 5. Swiss has the issue that it has no way for a deck that lost to you (due to bad draw) to come back and clean your clock.I will try one more time to write about how it works with examples because every negative you are giving it is something that is not true. Edited and bolded for clarity If you could expand just on point #5, that would be helpfull. In the explanations of Swiss I have not seen this scenario.
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Static Cat
Ancient Immortal
What are you looking at nancy boy!
Posts: 408
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Post by Static Cat on Apr 20, 2009 18:05:52 GMT -5
Woah! . . .
I go to sleep, I wake up I go to work I come home and this thread has EXPLODED . . . I didn't mean to badmouth Double Elimination, I just know that having played in Double Elimination and in Swiss for probably longer than any of you in this industry having started with Magic back in '94 and being a judge for just about every game since I understand the pros and cons.
Regardless, I've already said my prattle in another post about which I think is better . . . as for everyone else I'm sorry to hear what people are saying, honestly I just wish it was simplier and more efficient for everyone and I hope that things will settle down.
If people want to know more about Swiss style and how it's run feel free to ask Chris ( swisherfan ) or myself through PM this way we don't bother anyone else and we'll be happy to show you a different way even if there are 50 people in the tournament without Double Eliminiation, the best play the best and that's that.
So again, I am sorry for the way this thread exploded into something other than a tournament report and we'll try to keep it a little more respectable for future. ( at least I will )
Cat
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