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Post by pseudosoldier on Feb 24, 2007 20:33:26 GMT -5
First off, let me say that although I'm looking for an "official" answer, discussion on this topic is welcome. I say again: Discussion is welcome.
And encouraged.
1. I thought I read elsewhere on these forums that the migration of Situation: Plot to just plain Plot would be applied to all 1E cards as well. This would be a change to the core rules so that it applies to any version of Highlander played (barring house rules, of course). Is this accurate? Should we assume that this change will be errata (and that the 1E Investigation will be similarly errata-ed to match the 2E Investigation)?
2. Of remade WoC: is it legal to use 2E Weapon specific cards with the 1E versions of that weapon? 2A) Rapier? 2B) Katana/Katana Sword? 2C) Sabre/Saber?
The best case could probably be made for Rapier, as they have the same name and the same name listed under the specificity line (what's that actually called, anyway?). In fact, looking at the card list for Rapier, it almost seems to be designed with reverse compatibility in mind. If so, kudos to the design team. (Also if that's the case, I imagine the other two were named differently specifically to avoid this.)
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Post by prowler7 on Feb 25, 2007 2:08:24 GMT -5
Heya!
In my conversations with Tim, Brent and Greg, they stated that there were some WoC they liked and left virtually unchanged from 1ed to 2ed. I cannot, however, answer for sure whether or not Rapier cards (for instance) for 1ed and 2ed are interchangable.
I also have heard that Plots in 1ed would be changed to reflect 2ed, but there was no real explanation as to exactly how this would be done and what changes exactly would be made. This is another in a long list of unanswered questions concerning 1ed.
I am all for and actively pushing for a comprehensive 1ed errata, one that reflects the changes due to the introduction of 2ed, along with some loopholes (like it NOT being stated anywhere that you cant Divine Intervention a persona card, and NO we didnt allow that to happen) being closed and/or clarified.
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Post by Thorr on Feb 25, 2007 9:06:36 GMT -5
I think that all you would have to do to 1E is make a global errata that states all instances of the term Situation: Plot are replaced by the term Plot. All cards of type Situation: Plot are now considered to have the Plot Icon -
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teuta
Newly Immortaled
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Post by teuta on Feb 25, 2007 11:27:27 GMT -5
Why would you change the 1E core rules to make them conform to 2E cards/rules? It has been stated that you can't play 1E cards in a 2E game (many times). If you changed the 1E core rules all the 1E cards would have to be heavily modified or just about all of them couldn't be used (think eggs - if nothing else).
The 2E cards are marked as 1E compatible (or not), though no one has ever spelled out just how you would use them in a 1E game. So potentially you could play a 1E game with mixed cards.
I can see a separate errata (or whatever you chose to call it) to play these mixed 1E/2E games that spells out how to do this, but not a significant rewrite of the 1E core rules.
Frankly I don't see very much of a demand to even play this mixed 1E/2E game at the moment. A large percentage of the available 2E cards are merely rehashes (with minor changes) of existing 1E cards. Grayson does comes to mind as a potential candidate for a mixed deck. This could change over time as LM introduces new sets and more choices are available - if that happens.
What is the purpose of denoting 2E cards as 1E compatible if you modify the 1E core rules to conform to 2E? That makes no sense. Wouldn't the rewrite (if the result made any sense at all) just make 1E cards potentially playable in 2E games?
The bottom line as I see it is right now you have two separate games (1E and 2E), sharing the same SwordMaster engine. The question is not whether you want to blow up the existing 1E game, but rather you really want to create a third game that is a hybrid of 1E/2E. That would require a new guideline (and not a rewrite of the 1.0 Core rules).
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Post by pseudosoldier on Feb 25, 2007 14:00:22 GMT -5
teuta - The core rules are the Swordmaster system. By introducing Plot cards (not Situation: Plot) to the system, they have already necessitated a modification.
You may see them as separate games, but the fact that the producers of the official cards say they aren't trumps that. Type 1 and 2E-only are simply separate tournament formats. The eggs are not used in Type 1 tournaments, so this requires no modification to the Swordmaster system, but non-Situation Plots need to be addressed. Granted, the rules (either the core rules or the format rules) could wind up stating that Plots are treated as Situations in Type 1, but that didn't seem to be what was indicated earlier.
If there are a significant number of players who decide to play 1E-only tournaments (that is, NO 2E card), they'd likely have to supply their own prize support. (Yes, I know this is a sticking point even with the current tournament support system.) But LM representatives have laid out what formats they are supporting, and it's 2E-only and Type 1.
As far as demand to play Type 1 (which is the "mixed 1E/2E game" that you mention), there are a handful of posts on these forums about a tournament (in KC, granted) that drew 11 players, which seems comparable to the turnout of 2E-only tournaments in the area.
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teuta
Newly Immortaled
Posts: 26
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Post by teuta on Feb 25, 2007 15:35:32 GMT -5
(1) LM has already implied there are (at least) two separate games by:
(a) The fact they have chosen to mark the 2E cards with 1E compatibility marks. (b) Published a separate set of 2.0 rules. (c) Not allowing 1E cards in 2E events
If there was truly only one game with a single set of Core rules, then why would they have done the above? Right now there are two sets of "Core" Rules: 1.0 (with the handbooks, addendum, and errata) and 2.0. LM has already acknowledged that to be the case by the way they rolled out 2E.
Where is it written there HAS to be a single set of Core Rules? Take Traveler and (A)D&D as examples. Many people still play the original Traveler even though Marc Miller is advertising T5.
(2) Does the current use of eggs fall into the SwordMaster Core rules? If it does, then how do you make the system backwards compatible with all the existing 1E cards: which either have no eggs or use them entirely differently? I suppose it could be done, but it would require massive card errata. You don't get to pick (Plots) and choose (eggs) what is "core" and what is not.
(3) Even if LM does try to mandate 2E parameters into the 1E core rule set, how many players will actually follow that and how many will continue to play 1E only games? Right now, almost no one outside of KC is playing 2E. If LM doesn't get its act together fairly soon, it doesn't have the synergy to change the 1E mindset or the cards (either by the number of sets or pure volume) to get anyone to pay any attention. Clearly their focus is (and should be right now) on making a go of 2E and not pissing off long time players by suddenly making an announcement that all those old TCG cards are either unplayable or they have become so unwieldy to play because of all the card errata created by the single "new" core rule set.
Someday the 1.0 Rules (and their associated files), might be as obsolete as the original DnD rules are today. The players moved to the new rules because it made sense, not because someone said they had to - and they certainly didn't change or outlaw the original set just because they had a new product. No one felt it was necessary to have a single "Core" rule set. They just stopped supporting the earlier rules. That is all the needs to be done today (and since TCG is no more, it sort has been done already).
(4) I am all for a guideline/rules/errata that allows for a mixed game of 1E and 2E (with 1E compatibility). Right now I have no desire to play such a game since I see little value added by inserting S1 and S2 cards into a 1E game - though the exercise is intellectually interesting.
Having stated my personal (lack of) interest on mixed games, it still needs to be done sometime; just not at the expense of blowing up the 1E rules or taking away from more pressing issues. My guess is LM has better things to focus its energies on at the moment - many of which have been documented elsewhere on the forum.
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teuta
Newly Immortaled
Posts: 26
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Post by teuta on Feb 25, 2007 15:59:03 GMT -5
Frack - I assumed they called it the 2nd Edition for a reason (and not because the name was catchy)....
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Post by rplantau on Feb 25, 2007 17:07:09 GMT -5
I prefer the way plots are played in 2e and am happy to adopt it to 1e play, because many were too easy to get rid of with Police and thus rarely played.
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Post by dbaker on Feb 25, 2007 18:38:08 GMT -5
What 1e cards removes plots or nulifies Plots?
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lang
Master
[M:5]
Posts: 143
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Post by lang on Feb 25, 2007 18:40:27 GMT -5
I think they should leave 1E alone as 2E is the result of 1E fixed in a sense , in other words if it aient broke dont fix it .
As for Plots not being able to be Policed in 1E , I think that would suck although I have to admit I do not always agree with all rules changes in ANY game so understand if it is made that way.
Just because Plots are played one way in 2E doesnt mean they need to played the same way in 1E because if you do then why not make all 1E cards 2E legal somehow ! Not saying what is the right or wrong way to do that but could see them as type 1.5E maybe using both 1E and 2E cards .
And the answer to your question Dallis is Investigation( event ) . Remove 1 plot Situation from play( from Series and Movie Edition).
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lang
Master
[M:5]
Posts: 143
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Post by lang on Feb 25, 2007 18:45:19 GMT -5
You see we never use Investigation as Police covers both in 1E rules but as Thorr has pointed out all that needs to be done is drop the word Situation from the current card Investigation .
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Post by dbaker on Feb 25, 2007 20:51:17 GMT -5
Currently in 1e you can Focus a Situation:Plot but there is no focus in 1e for plots, is there? 2e has Foiled.
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Post by jamesmcmurray on Feb 25, 2007 20:54:57 GMT -5
No, there's not a focus for plots in 1e. But Foiled is 1e legal, so could be used.
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Post by pseudosoldier on Feb 25, 2007 20:56:12 GMT -5
Dallis, the 2nd Edition Set 2 card Foiled is also legal in Type 1.
Now if you're asking about cards that would be legal in a theoretical 1E-only game? Then I suppose you're right and there isn't one like Focus for Plots. But LM hasn't made any noise about a 1E-only tournament format, so they're likely not concerned about it.
(Still trying to cook up a full response to teuta.)
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Post by jamesmcmurray on Feb 25, 2007 21:07:09 GMT -5
And if you were to have a 1e only game, you'd probably be best served using straight 1e rules.
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