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Post by headswillroll on Oct 14, 2007 6:50:52 GMT -5
For those that are not aware this forum is for the Type One Format, which includes 1ed / The Raven (except time and trap cards) / and 2ed cards that are not bugged for Type Two only. This thread is to opinionate certain cards that could be troublesome, and should possibly have action taken against them for the betterment of the format. I know they are out there, and have a few in mind myself. Share if you choose to (even if it is after you extorted it in a tourney). ;D  Headswillroll |
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Daijin
Elder Immortal
Posts: 296
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Post by Daijin on Jan 30, 2009 11:40:50 GMT -5
I have a question for two cards actually. The first is Dirty Trick: Shove. I notice that for the 1e version (the Movie Set), that it has the extra power of removing all opponent's Standing Defenses, as well as the rest of what a Shove does. I see the 2E version doesn't affect Standing Defenses. The question for this is as the 1e Shove been errated to no longer affect SD's or is this one of many cases where the 1e and 2e versions will have a slight difference and the player chooses which one he/she prefers. My second question is for Discipline (1e). The card reads as follows: "If your opponent played an Event last turn that prevents you from playing a Special Card or any cards, you may play this card. For thr remainder of the turn, you may ignore the effect of that Event." My question pertains to the "or any cards" part of it. Does "any cards" include not only Edge but defenses and attacks as well, seeing that defenses and attacks are cards as well. I just wanted clarification on this.  I've looked around to see if there was any explanation and found none, so I just want to be sure. I assume the "or other cards" part is a redundancy and is simply ignored lol Oh yes, one last question that came to mind. About prevention effects, I see the definition in the Player's Handbook and wonder if that definition is still valid, being that the Handbook is quite old so I don't know if that ruling is still in use. As it reads, a prevention effect is one that prevents you from playing a card you normally could and I was wondering if an effect that added a cost to playing a card is still considered a prevention effect. The Handbook uses Master's Advantage as an example, the exact example being: "Example2: Master's Advance states that you must Discard a Dodge to play a Dodge, thereby preventing you from playing a Dodge." |
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Post by dbaker on Jan 30, 2009 12:25:26 GMT -5
My second question is for Discipline (1e). The card reads as follows: "If your opponent played an Event last turn that prevents you from playing a Special Card or any cards, you may play this card. For thr remainder of the turn, you may ignore the effect of that Event." My question pertains to the "or any cards" part of it. Does "any cards" include not only Edge but defenses and attacks as well, seeing that defenses and attacks are cards as well. I just wanted clarification on this. I've looked around to see if there was any explanation and found none, so I just want to be sure. I assume the "or other cards" part is a redundancy and is simply ignored lol If Hugh Fitzcairn played Fast Talk: Event(Your opponent cannot play any cards from his hand) against you, you could play Discipline and then play as normal. You would be able to defend, attack and play a special along with play edges. Otherwise you could not play any card from your hand. |
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Daijin
Elder Immortal
Posts: 296
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Post by Daijin on Jan 30, 2009 13:06:54 GMT -5
My second question is for Discipline (1e). The card reads as follows: "If your opponent played an Event last turn that prevents you from playing a Special Card or any cards, you may play this card. For thr remainder of the turn, you may ignore the effect of that Event." My question pertains to the "or any cards" part of it. Does "any cards" include not only Edge but defenses and attacks as well, seeing that defenses and attacks are cards as well. I just wanted clarification on this. I've looked around to see if there was any explanation and found none, so I just want to be sure. I assume the "or other cards" part is a redundancy and is simply ignored lol If Hugh Fitzcairn played Fast Talk: Event(Your opponent cannot play any cards from his hand) against you, you could play Discipline and then play as normal. You would be able to defend, attack and play a special along with play edges. Otherwise you could not play any card from your hand. Actually according to the Handbook, because Hugh's Fast Talk keeps you from playing any cards from your hand, I can't play Discipline from my hand at all. Here's the the entry from the Handbook directly: " Discipline (all versions) - Discipline only works when you are prevented from playing Attacks or Special cards specifically by a card in play. If you are unable to play a card from your Hand, such as through the effects of Fast Talk: Hugh Fitzcairn, you cannot play Discipline to ignore the card's effects since you are unable to play Discipline. Discipline only allows you to ignore the effects that are preventing you from playing Attacks or Special cards (depending on which Discipline you played), and does not allow you to ignore other effects of a card. Example1: Player A plays Fast Talk: Hugh Fitzcairn. Player B has Discipline in her Hand, but cannot play it since she cannot play cards from her Hand due to Fast Talk." My question is if someone plays an Event that prevents me from playing, say defenses, can I use that Discipline to play defenses as normal, because it does say "...or any card" and defenses are cards. |
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Post by headswillroll on Jan 30, 2009 13:10:00 GMT -5
I have a question for two cards actually. The first is Dirty Trick: Shove. I notice that for the 1e version (the Movie Set), that it has the extra power of removing all opponent's Standing Defenses, as well as the rest of what a Shove does. I see the 2E version doesn't affect Standing Defenses. The question for this is as the 1e Shove been errated to no longer affect SD's or is this one of many cases where the 1e and 2e versions will have a slight difference and the player chooses which one he/she prefers. My second question is for Discipline (1e). The card reads as follows: "If your opponent played an Event last turn that prevents you from playing a Special Card or any cards, you may play this card. For thr remainder of the turn, you may ignore the effect of that Event." My question pertains to the "or any cards" part of it. Does "any cards" include not only Edge but defenses and attacks as well, seeing that defenses and attacks are cards as well. I just wanted clarification on this. I've looked around to see if there was any explanation and found none, so I just want to be sure. I assume the "or other cards" part is a redundancy and is simply ignored lol Oh yes, one last question that came to mind. About prevention effects, I see the definition in the Player's Handbook and wonder if that definition is still valid, being that the Handbook is quite old so I don't know if that ruling is still in use. As it reads, a prevention effect is one that prevents you from playing a card you normally could and I was wondering if an effect that added a cost to playing a card is still considered a prevention effect. The Handbook uses Master's Advantage as an example, the exact example being: "Example2: Master's Advance states that you must Discard a Dodge to play a Dodge, thereby preventing you from playing a Dodge." #1- The 1ed and 2ed versions of this card are separate. It is your choice. #2- Yes, "or any cards" does cover what is says, and would apply to attacks/defenses/edges as well as specials. #3- Yes it is considered a prevention effect since if you don't discard, you cannot play. |
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Daijin
Elder Immortal
Posts: 296
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Post by Daijin on Jan 30, 2009 13:22:29 GMT -5
Cool!
#1: Thanks for letting me know. Means I'll more than likely go for the 1ed one for the added effect hehe!
#2 : That's awesome! I was asking because there is another Discipline that was just if an Event prevented you from just playing attacks, so I wasn't sure if the one I asked about would include an effect the other version had and more. This is great news!
#3: Thank you for clarifying the prevention effects for me. I know the game has made a lot of rules changes as it's been evolving and since the rules I knew are quite old, I wante dto be sure if they were still in effect, for I know some rules have been kept while others have been changed or dropped altogether.
Thanks, HWR!
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Post by headswillroll on Jan 30, 2009 13:51:42 GMT -5
If Hugh Fitzcairn played Fast Talk: Event(Your opponent cannot play any cards from his hand) against you, you could play Discipline and then play as normal. You would be able to defend, attack and play a special along with play edges. Otherwise you could not play any card from your hand. Actually according to the Handbook, because Hugh's Fast Talk keeps you from playing any cards from your hand, I can't play Discipline from my hand at all. Here's the the entry from the Handbook directly: " Discipline (all versions) - Discipline only works when you are prevented from playing Attacks or Special cards specifically by a card in play. If you are unable to play a card from your Hand, such as through the effects of Fast Talk: Hugh Fitzcairn, you cannot play Discipline to ignore the card's effects since you are unable to play Discipline. Discipline only allows you to ignore the effects that are preventing you from playing Attacks or Special cards (depending on which Discipline you played), and does not allow you to ignore other effects of a card. Example1: Player A plays Fast Talk: Hugh Fitzcairn. Player B has Discipline in her Hand, but cannot play it since she cannot play cards from her Hand due to Fast Talk." My question is if someone plays an Event that prevents me from playing, say defenses, can I use that Discipline to play defenses as normal, because it does say "...or any card" and defenses are cards. No offense, but you must look to your right in the resources file at the Type One rules. In Type One format the only documents that are used in tournament play are the Type One rulebook and any official updates for the Type One rulebook. The 1ed rules/Handbook/Addendum are not valid in this format. Now to answer your question. The text on Discipline gives you the permission to play it, because the denial side of Fast Talk fulfills the requirement to trigger the permission side of the Discipline. Bait and Switch 2ed works the same way. |
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Daijin
Elder Immortal
Posts: 296
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Post by Daijin on Jan 30, 2009 13:58:53 GMT -5
Actually according to the Handbook, because Hugh's Fast Talk keeps you from playing any cards from your hand, I can't play Discipline from my hand at all. Here's the the entry from the Handbook directly: " Discipline (all versions) - Discipline only works when you are prevented from playing Attacks or Special cards specifically by a card in play. If you are unable to play a card from your Hand, such as through the effects of Fast Talk: Hugh Fitzcairn, you cannot play Discipline to ignore the card's effects since you are unable to play Discipline. Discipline only allows you to ignore the effects that are preventing you from playing Attacks or Special cards (depending on which Discipline you played), and does not allow you to ignore other effects of a card. Example1: Player A plays Fast Talk: Hugh Fitzcairn. Player B has Discipline in her Hand, but cannot play it since she cannot play cards from her Hand due to Fast Talk." My question is if someone plays an Event that prevents me from playing, say defenses, can I use that Discipline to play defenses as normal, because it does say "...or any card" and defenses are cards. No offense, but you must look to your right in the resources file at the Type One rules. In Type One format the only documents that are used in tournament play are the Type One rulebook and any official updates for the Type One rulebook. The 1ed rules/Handbook/Addendum are not valid in this format. Now to answer your question. The text on Discipline gives you the permission to play it, because the denial side of Fast Talk fulfills the requirement to trigger the permission side of the Discipline. Bait and Switch 2ed works the same way. Thanks, and no offense to you, I did state in my first post here that I knew the Handbook was very old and didn't know if it was valid or not which was why I was asking the questions in the first place, for varification (because yes, when I first wanted to learn this a week or so ago, I did look to the right and used the Type One rulebook link) However, the Type One rulebook doesn't cover everything; I looked for prevention effects there first and didn't find it. Furthermore, if the updates only occur on this forum, it's hell to find them because there are too many threads to be searched and I also did do a search here for the term "prevention" and found no post on it. There should be a link on the side for rule updates so that everyone can have easy access to it and keep up with the changes that take place. Also, if that's the case, there shouldn't be a link for the Handbook and Addendum since they are useless now as you say: why have links to obsolete rules in the first place? |
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Post by headswillroll on Jan 30, 2009 14:15:26 GMT -5
Problem fixed. The only places that any "official" updates will be found for the Type One or Type Two rulebooks is in their respective threads. They will not be listed by us, the rules team, anywhere else. I just added the Type One Update thread since we haven't added any yet. So, now you know where to go. Thanks and hope it helps. We will look into whether or not the Denial/Permission entry needs to be added. It might ease confusion, we'll see. Your answer was derived by card text, but I can see the validity of your statement.
HWR
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Post by headswillroll on Jan 30, 2009 14:19:20 GMT -5
The 1ed final rules/Handbook/Addendum are in the resource files for those players that participate in 1ed only tournaments and for the MLE players.
Now, bear in mind that the only company supported formats are Type One and Type Two.
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Daijin
Elder Immortal
Posts: 296
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Post by Daijin on Jan 30, 2009 14:23:25 GMT -5
Problem fixed. The only places that any "official" updates will be found for the Type One or Type Two rulebooks is in their respective threads. They will not be listed by us, the rules team, anywhere else. I just added the Type One Update thread since we haven't added any yet. So, now you know where to go. Thanks and hope it helps. We will look into whether or not the Denial/Permission entry needs to be added. It might ease confusion, we'll see. Your answer was derived by card text, but I can see the validity of your statement. HWR Thank you very much for listening, HWR! Though, after re-reading Discipline, the permission text to play it as written makes absolute sense as to how it gets around Hugh's Fast Talk; so it does have a build-in protection to allow it to be played; the old ruling in the Handbook ignored the trigger to allow it to be played, which was lame. So I can see how you guys bascially fixed that by tossing out that old mistake and restoring Discipline to it's original power. And thanks to you as well, I know where to look for rule updates in the future and I appreciate the creation of a thread for Type One Rule Update, because there wasn't one and there will be other players I'm sure who will be looking up Type One rulings over 1e cards to be sure how they work now with the new rule environment. Daryl |
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Daijin
Elder Immortal
Posts: 296
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Post by Daijin on Jan 30, 2009 14:34:12 GMT -5
The 1ed final rules/Handbook/Addendum are in the resource files for those players that participate in 1ed only tournaments and for the MLE players. Now, bear in mind that the only company supported formats are Type One and Type Two. Ah! Okay, I didn't know there was a format for only 1ed cards. Right, that's why they say "H1E" on the sides and not "Type one". I understand now and also apologize about that. Oh and since it's on my mind, I saw the Type Two updated rules about dropping Standing Defenses at will if it's not a Guard but has one hand icon on it, i.e. Two-Handed Stance. I was wondering of this update also applied in Type One as well. Thanks again! Daryl |
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Post by prowler7 on Jan 30, 2009 17:34:33 GMT -5
Ah! Okay, I didn't know there was a format for only 1ed cards. Not QUITE correct. Type One is a mix of 1ed, Black Raven and 2ed cards without the  on them. As far as Type Two errata being added to Type One, we are currently working on the newest errata integration. So the answer is : soon. |
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Daijin
Elder Immortal
Posts: 296
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Post by Daijin on Jan 30, 2009 17:47:38 GMT -5
Ah! Okay, I didn't know there was a format for only 1ed cards. Not QUITE correct. Type One is a mix of 1ed, Black Raven and 2ed cards without the on them. As far as Type Two errata being added to Type One, we are currently working on the newest errata integration. So the answer is : soon. lol well HWL did say "The 1ed final rules/Handbook/Addendum are in the resource files for those players that participate in 1ed only tournaments and for the MLE players." So from what he told me, there are tournies that ONLY use 1e cards, but that isn't sponsered by you guys. I know exactly what Type One is, but HWL is telling me that in addition to that and Type Two, there are 1ed card only tournies, albeit not supported officially by the company. And I thank you prowler in answering my question about Type One/Type Two errata integration! Sidenote: Though I know the Handbook and Addendum are not used for Type One rules, I found out that the old rules team from back them in the Addendum got smart and fixed it so that you could play Discipline: Special when facing Hugh's Fast Talk! Just nice to know they got smart before you guys came along |
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Post by headswillroll on Jan 31, 2009 8:49:11 GMT -5
We have to address the obvious. Sure there are 1ed only players out there. Personally, I don't know of any, everyone has gone to either Type One or Type Two. The closest thing I can think of to 1ed only would be MLE, but that is not accurate either since they make their own cards online and play online. Thorr could give you more details on MLE.
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I've looked around to see if there was any explanation and found none, so I just want to be sure. I assume the "or other cards" part is a redundancy and is simply ignored lol
