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Post by clique84 on Apr 7, 2011 12:38:55 GMT -5
The "legitmate" reason is that he was not designed with access to those cards in mind, I would bet. I know you say that it wouldn't break him, but you don't know that, you are only one set of eyes looking at the situation.
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Post by kurganfan on Apr 7, 2011 13:30:00 GMT -5
Gotta feeling this is one of those threads that will never die. In regards to Rachael Macleod and Loyal Clansmen, Kell doesn't need another way to hide cards and draw free cards. Kell was built to do certain things to keep a balance, when you can take all that and add even more potentially abusive mechanics, he can become your Worst Nightmare. Hey that would be a cool card title. And every card game I've ever played, extra free card draw is the most potentially abusive mechanic.
Just my 2 cents
Just a suggestion, proxy up a Kell deck with Clan Macleod cards included and see for yourself the level of help it adds. Might be a nice 'fun deck'.
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Post by Brent Bailey on Apr 7, 2011 15:14:41 GMT -5
Clan MacLeod cards aren't merely meant to be cards that anyone that came from the Clan can use. Faction specific cards were made in the game to represent how certain personas with similar backgrounds, resources, and interests have a common pool of manuevers, allies, and tricks.
The Four Horsemen cards are made together because the Horsemen fought as one. Acted as one. And, during their time together as Horsemen, shared the same resources and agendas.
Clan MacLeod is the same way. Connor, Duncan, and even Collin share a common love for all things Clan MacLeod. Their experience in the Clan provide common memories of friends and loved ones. All three are legends of the Clan and known to the members of that Clan from present day. All three were Clan nobles (adopted noble in the case of Collin) and they lived the rest of their life by the code of honor learned in the Clan.
Even though he grew up in Clan MacLeod, Kell, on the other hand does not share similar experiences or carry the same values from his time in the Clan. So, thematically, the cards created for use by the three MacLeods do not mesh with Kell's personality or how he played 'the game'.
Faction specific cards are more about the things various immortals have in common through experiences and personalities, rather than just based off technicalities.
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Post by thelovebus on Apr 7, 2011 16:19:04 GMT -5
But you said it Faction specific so being in the Faction would be the factor in who can and cannot play the cards. I agree with you theme wise it does not work but technically it does and when it comes to ccgs rules and technicality trump Intent. For instance if there is a rule that says he cannot use them or one that lists who can use them then fine but there is not so it becomes a Judgement call and Technically he was a member of Clan Macleod which is the title of the Faction. So as the rules are at this moment he should be able too use them. I understand the Intent is that he cannot use them but my whole point is there is no rule against it so why couldn't he if he is a part of Clan Macleod?
And yes I know it will not break him as I have play tested it on Lackey. When I say "Broken" I am not talking about being good I am talking about being able to do something your opponent cannot do anything about or Do something Crazy multiple times consistently. Clan Macleod cards do not allow him too do that. What he would do with them would really be nothing new if you have played against a good Colin Connor or Duncan Deck.
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Post by clique84 on Apr 7, 2011 16:39:52 GMT -5
I just double checked the rules, I could swear there was an entry before that defined what a faction was and who was in each but could not find it. Prowler and HWR: am I crazy or was there such an entry and I am not finding it? HINT: There should be if there isn't now...
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Post by kurganfan on Apr 7, 2011 16:40:29 GMT -5
You seriously want a Kell/Macleod deck I'm guessing. I don't think simply growing up in Glenfinnan, deep in Macleod country, necessarily bestows Clan membership. Look at it this way, if Kell had wanted to be recognized as a member of Clan Macleod (I know I'm stretching here) don't you think he'd call himself Jacob Macleod? He's named Kell for a reason, and although it may be Davis/Panzer's seeming obsession with Immortals with the last name starting with K, it could also be to truly and completely distinguish Kell from the Macleods, which he appears not to be entitled to call himself. Therefore, no Clan Macleod cards for Mr. Kell, and I'm guessing he wouldn't want them anyway.
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Post by thelovebus on Apr 7, 2011 18:26:06 GMT -5
Just because someone doesn't distinguish themselves doesnt make them not a clan member For instance I am Dutch German do I claim to be no does it make it less so no. As for living there and the name I will point back to the wiki where it clearly states surname does not factor into belonging to a certain clan. Living in a clan territories is all it took. And do i want to play Kell sure do i want to play clan macleod sorta like I said there is no broken strategy there just something i thought of that wasn't stated in the rules.
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Post by prowler7 on Apr 7, 2011 20:43:02 GMT -5
We didn't state explicitly in the rules who is in each faction because we (the Rules Team) felt that it was self evident to anyone who had watched the show/movies. If you are a MacLeod (hero from the show or movies and happen to be named MacLeod) then you are in the faction Clan MacLeod. If you are a member of the original Four Horsemen, then you are a member of the faction Four Horsemen. Russ, next you will be arguing that Ritchie should be able to use Four Horsemen cards since he was a member of the new group in an alternate reality.
I am sorry, but the answer is no, Kell is NOT considered a member of the Clan MacLeod Faction. For all of the reasons named by Brent, and on behalf of the Rules Team I will add that he is not a member for purposes of Game Balance (which I believe was originally brought up by Clique).
This whole thread has been an interesting discussion. btw.
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Post by thelovebus on Apr 7, 2011 23:02:03 GMT -5
I disagree that you had too be a hero too be in a scottish clan named Macleod. No on Ritchie although an allowance card for him would be cool too play what im not sure but would be cool. As far as Brent's reasons. Like I said Intent is not the rules of game play and should never be that way IMO. Should they Influence it sure but at the end of the day the rules (or lack of them) should trump any intent. For the purposes of Game Balance? really what is so broken about Kell using those cards that messes up the game balance? Specifically. There isn't anything he can do with those cards that hasn't been done before and you can prepare for with minimum effort.
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Post by clique84 on Apr 8, 2011 0:04:56 GMT -5
Stop trying to apply "Magic" level rules lawyering to an obviously non-Magic level game maybe?
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Post by thelovebus on Apr 8, 2011 0:25:19 GMT -5
Magic level rules? Rules are Rules.
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Post by kurganfan on Apr 8, 2011 1:44:18 GMT -5
Ok, let me give this another shot. Whoever wrote the Wiki you are referring to is giving their interpertation of the Highlander canon,which may be somewhat different from the version that the game designers refer to. You didn't find a loophole or 'grey area' of the rules, Kell is simply not considered a Clan Macleod persona, regardless of where he was raised. Kell=movie badass, Kell=solid game persona, Kell=fun to play. Kell does not equal Macleod however. I'd say if you want to institute a house rule at your non sanctioned tournaments to mix and match cards or combine them as you see fit, more power to you. But don't expect it to fly in a sanctioned event. Shutting up now
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Post by thelovebus on Apr 8, 2011 2:50:59 GMT -5
The wiki I pointed too had 0 to do with Highlander and everything too do with Real history of scottish clans. As far as gray area lets see something that is debatable and not clearly defined looks like it to me. Just because things are accepted does not make them right. Look i was just looking for a legitimate reason why he isn't in clan macleod and thus able too use their cards IMO i have not gotten one. So far I have gotten was not intent of cards. -Was Annie really Intended to use Both Katars? -Was Colin Intended to use the Cane Sword? -Hell anytime you use a Darius. For purposes of Game balance. -Like I have said what exactly is Broken about it? He was a Bad guy and not a Hero. -That effects where he comes from and who he lived with how? He has a Different last Name. -Surnames do not matter in scottish Clan membership. He Does not live by the Clan rules. -So doesn't make him less of a member. "Connor, Duncan, and even Collin share a common love for all things Clan MacLeod." -He never showed he didnt love Clan Macleod In fact his Love for his Father ( Clan Macleod Priest) is what drove his anger. "Their experience in the Clan provide common memories of friends and loved ones" -None of Colin's Experiences in the clan compare too Connor or Duncan also given the fact they were over 1000 years earlier. Marcus was a Roman. And Connor and Duncan were what 100 years apart not too many people left over that they would both know so what common memories are we talking about? Plus Kell and Connor would have more in common than any others as far as growing up in the clan since they were childhood friends. "All three are legends of the Clan and known to the members of that Clan from present day." -Umm Connor was Banished and kicked out of the clan. Duncan was kicked out by his own father. Not sure how Colin Left If I remember right he just left because his whole village was killed. But your right Connor was a Legend. "All three were Clan nobles (adopted noble in the case of Collin) and they lived the rest of their life by the code of honor learned in the Clan." -Ok Kell wasn't a Noble so is this faction Clan Macleod nobles and Ps they were all adopted Umm Collin's whole life was about revenge burning everyone around him pretty much like Kell but he was a Hero not a bad guy
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Post by prowler7 on Apr 8, 2011 5:48:16 GMT -5
This has gone around and around, and I see no further point in arguing about it. Its an interesting idea, it has been interesting conversation, but reality is reality and the game is the game, and the two rarely have anything to do with one another. Faction cards arent meant to include personas willy-nilly, when they are designed we have to keep each member of that Faction in mind. Kell was NOT kept in mind in regards to his design being used with Clan MacLeod and vice versa. That is simply the way it is. A couple years down the road when we get to End Game once more maybe you can sway Brent and the Design Team then, but as it stands now, I am afraid the answer is still no.
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Post by Thorr on Apr 8, 2011 6:43:41 GMT -5
At what point do I get to say "This is stupid. Stop."?
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