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Post by nkeates on Apr 13, 2009 4:00:12 GMT -5
Well with the recent ruling from Tim about Jack Donovan here is the ultimate lockdown deck. I really think that Jack (ME) was one of the worst cards printed and really does need the errata...here's why.
You can exploit it most with Mako but other immies do it nearly as well - it just guarantees it first turn with Mako
Mako
Gathering find sit
gathering find loc
gathering find plot
Rip
+2 others of your choice
Turn 1
Use Gathering to Find Jack and put into play
Use Gathering to Find Verona Italy 1637 and put into play
Use Gathering to find under colour (English spelling!!!) of authority and put it into play
Verona Italy stops everyone playing attacks (Note Verona is no longer errated to just mean special attacks it is as printed .. No attacks at all)
Under Colour stops your opponent playing specials
Jack allows you to do nothing
Your opponent can do nothing - he can't attack - he can't play a special - you PUT under colour into play remember and so has to exert every turn ..You also do nothing but because of Jack you don't have to exert.
You win but what an awful playing experience.
Jack and Verona both need their original errata.
Best
Nige.
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Post by dbaker on Apr 13, 2009 4:48:37 GMT -5
With the new Focus, Foiled, Recon and Always the last place you look edge cards that nullify these types of cards, this type of deck can be dealt with.
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Post by nkeates on Apr 13, 2009 4:51:27 GMT -5
I accept that it is not unbeatable but unless meta'd against it will cause real problems
N
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Post by prowler7 on Apr 13, 2009 5:10:48 GMT -5
I accept that it is not unbeatable but unless meta'd against it will cause real problems N If playing Recon, Focus, Foiled and ATLPYL are "metagame" cards, then something is wrong with your decks. Those cards are basic toolbox for a reason. A Mako deck like that is BUILT to get those cards out and sit there, if you can continue to play cards DESPITE what he put out, he WILL lose because he will quickly run out of his ability to KEEP you from playing cards as you whittle away at his combo. |
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Post by nkeates on Apr 13, 2009 5:28:48 GMT -5
I agree that these are toolbox cards - but how many of them would you put in your decks? Also if you can't play attacks or specials you hand cycling ability is going to be very limited indeed so if you don't draw many of these edge cards in your opening hand you are in trouble.
With regard to Verona it is particularly strong for Mako as with his ability he can keep it in play near enough for the whole game - yeah I know you can reconn it but how many reconns does the average deck run - even if it is a toolbox card?
In 1ed there are also many other ways of stopping you playing specials. A Mako deck of this type would also run Honor Bound Wargames West, Safe haven. I believe that you could keep the lock in place much more easily than it could be removed. Remember your deck has been specifically built to keep the lock in place - your opponent's deck will not have been specifically built to remove the lock.
Just out of interest - is there a reason that Verona and Jack's cards have reverted back to their original form when back in the day they were considered "broken" ?
Best as always
N
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Post by headswillroll on Apr 13, 2009 6:23:42 GMT -5
Trust me when I say they are being watched. Remember, "official" rulings have their place on the boards, not in random places all over the site. We understand your concerns and are aware of them, Tim more than anyone (Tim, you know what I mean). When we removed the errata from a lot of the cards it was because there were many options against the problem in today's game. However, there is a list of cards we are watching very closely. Thank you for your viewpoint, because it has been noted, and feel free to post or PM any other possible problem cards as it gives us other region's opinions on certain problem cards.
HWR
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Post by nkeates on Apr 13, 2009 7:44:09 GMT -5
The work that you and the rest of the design team do is always appreciated and I am sure you will keep and eye on all cards to maintain game balance.
Thanks
N
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Post by buckmoosejaw on Apr 13, 2009 10:01:55 GMT -5
I think that the goal of type 1 is to let everyone use all the old cards and mix them in with the new ones. If your looking for balance and a more attack style game you should play type 2. If you want to bust out all your old cards and see what crazy combinations people have come up with play type 1. Because all of the old "problem" cards and raven cards are allowed it will be difficult to have balance in type 1 without a huge complicated rules document. Nothing is unbeatable in type 1. I know there were at least 2 jack decks in the type 1 lean and mean at recruits and neither won the tourney.
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Post by prowler7 on Apr 13, 2009 12:28:12 GMT -5
I know there were at least 2 jack decks in the type 1 lean and mean at recruits and neither won the tourney. You are correct. One of those decks was played by Tim Small. And let me tell you, if Tim cant win with a cheese deck , the idea cant be all that great. He IS the Master Of Cheese, after all. |
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Post by brendanparochelli on Apr 13, 2009 12:56:01 GMT -5
I'd make the deck a few turns slower and try to get a Mako Master Advantage down incase my opponent did not draw into multiple toolbox edges. Maybe use Honor Bound instead of Color first turn and Focus/Wells through it to play Wargames, followed by Color, Safe Haven, Jack etc. Why drop Jack until he is protected. You'll probably need to DI a Q/Wells/Korda first turn so it would really more of a 3rd or 4th turn deck.
With Master Advantage down you will probably beat most attack decks. You will probably still lose in mirrors to people playing the real Jack persona or a persona with a couple of Master Focus'.
Definitely agree that Jack needs errata though. That is why he was reprinted with errata after all.
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Post by prowler7 on Apr 13, 2009 15:43:35 GMT -5
As you say, it takes about 3 or 4 turns to REALLY put out this combo so that it is well protected. And that is assuming that your opponent sits back and doesnt do a darned thing to PREVENT you from doing what you are attempting to do. Mark Well, Gathering Removals, toolbox, Ally Hate are all things to be feared if you are playing this deck. Not to mention SPEED DECKS, because if you are taking 3 or 4 turns just to set up, you may already be dead.
As HWR said, we are keeping an eye on certain cards, and if they prove to be a problem they will be addressed. However, with the inclusion of so many GOOD toolbox cards in 2ed, not to mention really helpful pregame cards, certain cards are not the game breakers they once were.
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Post by brendanparochelli on Apr 13, 2009 18:25:43 GMT -5
As you say, it takes about 3 or 4 turns to REALLY put out this combo so that it is well protected. Only takes one turn to lock your opponent. The other turns are reinforcing the lock and dropping Jack. And that is assuming that your opponent sits back and doesnt do a darned thing to PREVENT you from doing what you are attempting to do. Your opponent's cards will have to be removal assuming he is holding multiple Focus. Even then who packs multiple Police/Investigation in lean and mean. You cannot make an entire deck out of toolbox (minus type one god Methos, esp when Master Wisdom comes out) but you can make an entire deck out of stall cards. Mark Well, Gathering Removals, toolbox, Ally Hate are all things to be feared if you are playing this deck. I am aware. That is why I already mentioned them. There are only 3 or 4 pregame cards that really hurt a Jack deck. You can pack them all if you like. Eventually the one shot use removals will be gone and you will get locked. Not to mention SPEED DECKS, because if you are taking 3 or 4 turns just to set up, you may already be dead. What speed deck handles ped mill? I did not see any competitive deck at Recruits packing type 1 Trenchcoat. I did hear about a stall deck winning after a random ped mill soaked 51 pts of damage though. People packing all these toolbox cards is great in theory, but who really does pack straight toolbox in 60-70 cards and still have a deck concept (minus Mako/Methos). Jack stall can obviously lose, odds are just against it when played correctly. Someone actually played a Katana Jack deck at Recruits. A number of us who attended discussed it afterwards. Had they built and played it a little differently they would have won hands down. The only deck that would have given it trouble was the Methos deck that ended up winning. |
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Post by prowler7 on Apr 13, 2009 19:01:59 GMT -5
I am not saying the Lock Deck isnt powerful, but so is the Hyper Speed deck, Hunter Cheese deck, and a host of others. Like we said, we are watching, and if things get out of hand, we will do something about it. |
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Post by headswillroll on Apr 14, 2009 9:39:20 GMT -5
It is under scrutiny, as we have said. Very few are like Tim and care for these lock down decks especially since the game is centered around sword fighting, and let's face it, it is boring. There are elements that we must respect and deal with in the form of cheese/denial/lock down/disarm/plot/etc... besides just attack decks. We all know what an tenuous beast Type One can be with all of the diversity available between new and old product, that is the allure, am I right? This deck is definitely not unstoppable, heck I fared better than I thought against Tim and was in no way geared for it at Recruits. There are multiple ways to shut it down, granted in the right meta and built tight, it can be brutal, the same can be said for and attack, disarm, denial, cheese, ability loss, or plot deck strategy.
We are watching and will let you know of any changes as soon as possible.
HWR
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Post by Tim Small on Apr 14, 2009 10:58:17 GMT -5
a lot of the old rulings put into place by the older design teams should have never been allowed. They were put into place for personal reasons or improper rulings.
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