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Post by jamesmcmurray on Feb 25, 2007 14:18:21 GMT -5
Here's keyman's version:
Here's Headswillroll's version:
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Post by pseudosoldier on Feb 25, 2007 14:27:23 GMT -5
Thanks for moving the discussion to a more appropriate area.
An interesting (to me) note about this: there are no 2E or SAEC cards in the deck. I assume this is because there's simply no room...
So, is this the starting point for the Type 1 metagame? What beats Vapor/Machinegun?
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Post by jamesmcmurray on Feb 25, 2007 14:27:57 GMT -5
Here's my version:
Annie
Rapier
Parrying Blade
A&T Break Glass
Kurgan Q
Rip
6 patience
4 lean and mean
6 force of will
6 basic blocks
6 surprise attacks (6-MR)
6 flurry strikes (6-MR)
3 basic attacks (UR/MR/LR)
2 Annie Devlin flashing blade
6 Monkey
1 Annie Devlin duck
The monkeys aren't as good at stopping Nef and her Q from playing a special, but they're better at stopping people who use Concentration. The pregames can move around, but between 4 flurry strikes, 6 surprise attacks, and the Kurgan Q you should be able to easily deal lethal damage on turn one if they hit you, and still be almost assured of dealing lethal damage even if they don't hit you.
For people that use MLE, drop the Monkeys and replace them with 4 Discipline (free attack if you don't play a special) and 2 Furies.
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Post by jamesmcmurray on Feb 25, 2007 14:32:23 GMT -5
Thanks for moving the discussion to a more appropriate area. An interesting (to me) note about this: there are no 2E or SAEC cards in the deck. I assume this is because there's simply no room... So, is this the starting point for the Type 1 metagame? What beats Vapor/Machinegun? There's no room for 2e in this particular deck. Also 2e doesn't have a lot of good vapor. As more edges get printed that can be played withhout prereqs they may slide in. Vapor is tough to beat, but a simple Holy Ground can do it if your opponent has already had to Rip someone else's HG that tournament. Most Machine Gun decks can be stopped with just Alertness and Holy Ground, but if their deck is like this one so that defenses don't carry and your hand is empty you might be in for a world of hurt. The Nef Draw Q helps a lot against Monkeys, which are a staple of some Machine Gun decks. Even if they're not using Monkeys, it'll give you more chances to draw more defenses. If you Rip the Flashing Blade and they don't manage to play another then your Duncan Prime Block can carry across most of the attacks in the deck. |
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Post by keyman on Feb 25, 2007 14:50:27 GMT -5
>>If you Rip the Flashing Blade and they don't manage to play another >>then your Duncan Prime Block can carry across most of the attacks >>in the deck. Correct. Thats why the master swordsman were vital...it helped move attacks around when needed... Methos' Live Forever and lots of HolyG usually stopped a lot of similar theme decks to this one...as well as a lot of multi-grid defenses....Cassandra really gave this deck issues  |
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Post by headswillroll on Feb 25, 2007 16:15:39 GMT -5
Yes I would concur that a Holy Ground would work if you can get past the Renee Delany and the rip was already used , however can you play it every turn? Secret Identity and Duende and Live Forever are the reasons for the focus (opponents turn) and the police. True it is that there are ways to stop it but are you willing to play a deck to stop it just to fall to an average deck?  Headswillroll |
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lang
Master
[M:5]
Posts: 143
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Post by lang on Feb 25, 2007 18:56:14 GMT -5
I believe a properly built machine gun deck beats Annie probably 75% of the time and should beat others all the time  . But the real problem is your initial draw because as we all know a horrible draw kills any deck . |
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Post by jamesmcmurray on Feb 25, 2007 20:52:53 GMT -5
Whether I can play Holy Ground type cards every turn depends on the deck. My Nefertiri deck can Holy Ground six turns in a row with no problem. My Methos deck could only do it three times, but for you to flurry three times cmopletely you'll have to exhaust once, and once that happens the odds of a truly scary combo coming drop dramatically.
That's the biggest weakness of machine gun decks like these: exhaustion. If your opponent weathers the storm once or twice your gas all but disappears. A NEXUS Q if you have one can help, as can the NEXUS situation. The situation has the downside of giving your opponent a turn to do what he wants, which means in 1e he might kill you or drop a lock of his own.
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Post by prowler7 on Feb 25, 2007 21:21:12 GMT -5
[This deck list has been removed]
Like you said, a crappy opening draw will stall ANY deck, but I had trouble with only 2 decks friday and one was due initially to opening draw followed by one <censored> of a player in Jeremy Squire (the other was running into the Annie deck). I can see you guys all have experience against vapor decks (we have actually never seen them here in KC, we all stopped playing before the deck became popular apparantly).
Headswillroll and I knew going in what type of decks we were weak against (we plead ignorance to foreknowledge of Vapor Decks, like I said, we had never heard of them here in KC and discovered the combo on our own). We also knew that unless our opponents deck was nearly as fast (so they always had Discipline in thier hands), they would fall to us by third turn, and it held true.
A question for you guys who have experience with Vapor Decks - How often do they usually burn? We built ours on a "burn every turn" model.
BTW - I went against a Machine Gun Deck. At least, I assume it was, from talking to others and by what Q's and other pregames he had. I dont know who built it, all I know is it was lent to the player. The match was over in two turns, he never played a single card, either from his hand OR an exertion (his exerts were crap). He stormed off after reaching 0 ability, but before I got MY turn. It was a smart move, he was facing a Head Shot and probably wanted to get out before he owed the guy whose deck he borrowed 2 Q's. I am not bragging, I am pointing out what happened so in case he is reading this or whomever LENT him that deck is reading it, you know I was a nice guy and didnt INSIST you return to the table and relinquish what was rightfully MINE.
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Post by jamesmcmurray on Feb 25, 2007 22:04:14 GMT -5
My vapor decks tend to go off twice before burning because of a NEXUS Q (I've ot a NEXUS sit but don't use it). After that if it hasn't dealt some serious damage I may as well pack it in. A win is still possible, but vapor isn't nearly as useful when your hand size is 10.
Other vapor decks I've seen:
Ceirdwyn with Monkeys. Nowhere near as powerful post erratta, but Sources Revealed still gets the job done. I've seen some people use Simple Mind and Focus to recycle the Monkeys.
Duncan Leg Sweeping Head shots (usually comboes twice before risking exhaustion, but a simple alertness shuts it down)
Methos headhunter fighting in The Circle and using Vapor to make sure a Master Headshot happens every turn for 7 or 8 turns in a row. Has the advantage of being able to cycle stuck cards via the persona power.
Annie and Hugh are by far the scariest IMO. Which one is scarier really depends on the metagame and how many Break Glasses people in the area own.
And of course, if Kronos is popular you may as well pack it up and head on home. You'll combo once and if he survives it you'll likely never combo again.
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Post by rplantau on Feb 25, 2007 22:11:29 GMT -5
He stormed off after reaching 0 ability, but before I got MY turn. It was a smart move, he was facing a Head Shot and probably wanted to get out before he owed the guy whose deck he borrowed 2 Q's. I am not bragging, I am pointing out what happened so in case he is reading this or whomever LENT him that deck is reading it, you know I was a nice guy and didnt INSIST you return to the table and relinquish what was rightfully MINE. That's bollocks, you can't play with quickenings then run off. He should be REQUIRED to hand them over since he cut and run. Besides doing a runner being unsporting, playing with a Quickening is using a great advantage, and it's completely clear that if you lose your head you sacrifice those card(s). Boo hoo to him, he can buy his mate's Q's again on eBay anyway. Prowler7 if I was there watching that I woulda dragged him back myself! |
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Post by prowler7 on Feb 25, 2007 22:35:55 GMT -5
Prowler7 if I was there watching that I woulda dragged him back myself! Thank you for your support! Yeah, it was a cowardly play on his part, especially since the match before he had no problem taking THAT persons head and bragging about it. |
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Post by headswillroll on Feb 25, 2007 22:46:56 GMT -5
Well all I can say is that prior to coming up with this deck I had never heard of vapor decks. However after reading the other "vapor decks" that were listed I noticed a lot of weaknesses in those decks. The Annie deck was designed to stop any combo consistantly as well as throw her combo every turn (renee/flashing blade/two basic attacks/six surprise attacks). the A&T discard five is to drop the deck to forty cards if you are not facing methos SI/live forever or a Duende deck. All of the vapor decks that you posted would fall to duende, whereas i can either restrict him from using it or let him use it take all my attacks and next turn police it to where he takes ability losss, get my attacks back, and throw them at him the same turn. I am not going to argue with anybody whose is best, but I will throw the challenge for anybody to build this Annie and try it for yourself. As Prowler stated before these decks are designed to burn as many times per turn as you want, however we restricted it to burning once per turn or leaving a couple of cards to burn during the following turn. It is truly appreciated to be seen in action. Headswillroll |
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Post by dbaker on Feb 25, 2007 22:50:27 GMT -5
It was a very effective deck. First turn to see 8 attacks coming at you before you got to play a card.
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Post by headswillroll on Feb 25, 2007 22:54:43 GMT -5
The other beauty of the Annie and Hugh decks are that they faced quickenings/break glass (full turn and phase)/ and rips in about every deck and didn't use rips until they faced each other in the final. And they were not even using quickenings or breakglass. Headswillroll |
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. But the real problem is your initial draw because as we all know a horrible draw kills any deck . 
