Type1: Question about Kern's power . . .
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Post by ultra on Sept 18, 2014 0:38:47 GMT -5
Hi.
Kern's Power does not give up his first attack opportunity.
It only gives up his right to play his Special.
Therefore, he can attack first then do his exertion for multiple attacks, so potentially without any further modifications, 6 maximum attacks per turn.
Just checking.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by prowler7 on Sept 18, 2014 5:06:41 GMT -5
If he plays an attack from his Hand, he is going to need a 2nd attack slot to Exert for. Kerns power is no different from anybody else making an Exertion for an attack, with the exception that he can play any number of attacks from that Exertion.
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Post by ultra on Sept 18, 2014 13:18:42 GMT -5
Well, just asking, because he gets an additional attack for each attack he wants to play from the exertion.
so thought that the first attack is still usable.
Because... i was thinking technically, one can exert just to exert?
And so, the exertion (during the attack phase) happens to find some attacks that can be played due to his power,
and so they are played.
this is my thinking as to why this would qualify the first attack as still viable and playable from the hand.
in the old days, timing and card play, near end of deck, there would be exertions to exhaust to maximize cards already in hand and can be left out of the next run through the endurance.
but that was then and this is now.
And in this case, as the power does not specify needing an available attack slot.
And in the case of playing Dodges which you lose an attack, this is fairly critical as well.
Would think Kern could still exert to attack.
Please further clarify.
Thanks.
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Post by prowler7 on Sept 18, 2014 13:50:01 GMT -5
If you play an attack from your Hand, and then Exert for a reason OTHER than an additional attack (which you cant do unless you have another attack slot), and in that Exertion you have 1 or more cards which state that if found in an Exertion may be played as an additional attack, then yes you could do that.
All of this hinges on attack slots.
Just because his power lets you play as many attacks from an Exertion as you like, you only have 1 attack slot (unless you find a way to gain additional ones). If you use that 1 slot to play one from your Hand, then you don't have another slot to use for an Exertion for another attack.
If it worked the way you are hoping, EVERYBODY could play an attack from their Hand and then make an Exertion and play an attack from it (the only difference being that Kern could play multiples). The problem is, it does not work that way.
If you play a Dodge that says you lose an attack, and you only have the 1 attack slot, you cant Exert for an attack because you don't have an attack slot to use. If you play a Dodge that says you can only play Ranged Attacks and you Exert for an attack, the only attack you could play would be a Ranged one.
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Post by ultra on Sept 18, 2014 19:30:08 GMT -5
1. Not just any player can play an attack and exert for an attack.
2. However, every player can play an attack and make an exertion - for whatever reason ... or is this no longer the case?
3. Here are the reasons why i would think that Kern would be able to play the attack and then exert for more.
Base mechanics in Highlander per turn:
1 attack can be played from hand
1 Special card can be played
1 Draw up/Discard down to ability
1 resolve all damage/heal
1 exertion can be made per turn.
(not necessarily in this order)
of these 5 guaranteed actions, only 2 can absolutely increase card cycle of the hand - the Ability.
Play a special card
Play an attack
(in case other readers out there, defences are conditional upon pending incoming attack or stipulated effect on cards like guards, they are not inherent to the mechanics of the game itself, only the mechanic of being able to play 1 defence grid against 1 attack grid is inherent, but this inherent action is conditional on some other action and not stand alone in and of itself)
To sacrifice either a special slot or the attack slot is a hefty "exchange" for any effect for any card.
however, if Kern's power was to sacrifice both of these fundamental cycles, wouldn't that be considered a bit overkill?
sacrificing your two fundamental actions for a "chance" of maybe 0.6 attacks per effect on average (assuming cannot make the one attack from hand)
with a deck break down 1/3 defence, 1/3 attack, 1/3 specials
(now with edges AND illusions the non-grid cards percentages just keep going down and i doubt a typical deck nowadays even average more than 1 in 5 cards with an attack)
is quite inane?
Yes a deck can be weighted down to like 1/2 attack grid and even so there is no increase in card cycle.
The inherent sacrifice of depending on the exertion is that there is no gain in cycle - period.
now, to further this line of thought, is reconciliation of Kern's power with the attack slots concept (which i do like and it brings an order to the mechanics of attacks)
If Kern is allowed his first attack, than his Persona power could be construed as giving additional attack slots for each attack card he finds.
And there is many a precedence when a card will stipulate "you lose one attack this turn" when an attack slot is supposed to be used.
In the original Kern, this would have been stated (i surmise this to be the case from looking at the cards back then) if this was the original intent.
The loss of this one card cycle greatly hurts what's already a high variant effect with the heavy price of giving up half your innate cycle and puts the game in a more non-attack mode on an attack based personae.
2 cents and then some.
Again, i am not trying to get anyone upset, but would like to think about this ruling. And if so, the take of a ruling on the base mechanics of the game.
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Post by prowler7 on Sept 18, 2014 20:14:44 GMT -5
You want Kern to get an additional attack slot. The Design Team spent a lot of time discussing Kern, and he works the way he does because of game balance. If you look in The Legacy set he was given a card that allows him to play his OWN Special cards and use his ability, but that is as close as it gets. There are too many ways to get additional attacks to give him this. Also, he can easily get 10 card Exertions for attacks, with multiple of those being Power Blows. And he can do that every turn without losing Ability.
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Post by ultra on Sept 18, 2014 21:06:34 GMT -5
umm... for every augment with a special, there is a prevention by special.
specials contribute nothing to Kern's cause.
there is not gain here.
And for every special that needs to be played separate from the exertion effect,
then it's potential fodder for exertion.
will concede, exertion size control does increase overall effectiveness of this effect.
omg. i did not see bounty hunter - just looked this up / this is of some help.
mechanically though, it's still better to have the one attack every turn than 3 of these.
(not to say that im not impressed, i did know of this card, potentially gain 1 card cycle back, 3 times per run thru the deck)
the lack of that 2 card cycle - is a deficit.
i cannot think of a power that is so much of a non-power than this one.
With consolation on the bounty hunter, probably like a 30 to 50% rebate against lost cycle depending on build and play?
but there is gain in immediacy of effect ... hmmmm
thank u for the dialogue.
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Post by prowler7 on Sept 18, 2014 21:47:07 GMT -5
For instance, play with the Dueling Grounds location and NOW you have an additional attack. Use Bounty Hunter with Calm Before The Storm and now you have loaded your Exertion with all the attacks from your Hand. Throw out Master's Rage and now dodges won't avoid multiples. If you have Hogg in play one of those is a Power Blow for free.
This is a simple build of Kern. I haven't even delved into Weapon of Choice. Kern is just fine the way he is
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Post by ultra on Sept 18, 2014 22:27:18 GMT -5
heh. believe my build is in place.
just that one card cycle/lack of cycle, makes it difficult during play.
the Bounty Hunter though, allows me to change my angle a bit.
mechanics to help hand motion are more viable since Type1 is so huge and broad.
Kern's strength that it can function without any specials - technically.
Not many persona's can claim this.
there can only be one.
hah.
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Post by prowler7 on Sept 19, 2014 5:49:58 GMT -5
heh. believe my build is in place. just that one card cycle/lack of cycle, makes it difficult during play. the Bounty Hunter though, allows me to change my angle a bit. mechanics to help hand motion are more viable since Type1 is so huge and broad. Kern's strength that it can function without any specials - technically. Not many persona's can claim this. there can only be one. hah. There are several immortals who operate with little to no specials - May-Ling Shen and Jin Ke come to mind immediately. |
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Post by clique84 on Sept 19, 2014 8:58:44 GMT -5
heh. believe my build is in place. just that one card cycle/lack of cycle, makes it difficult during play. the Bounty Hunter though, allows me to change my angle a bit. mechanics to help hand motion are more viable since Type1 is so huge and broad. Kern's strength that it can function without any specials - technically. Not many persona's can claim this. there can only be one. hah. There are several immortals who operate with little to no specials - May-Ling Shen and Jin Ke come to mind immediately. I agree with Steve. Immortals that can generate threat without relying heavily on specials are, in my opinion, better choices to play than those that require special cards to "do things". This also leave you open to use your special cards to play more toolbox to deal with potential opponent strategies, or to enhance your offense further. |
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Post by ultra on Sept 20, 2014 8:16:11 GMT -5
There are several immortals who operate with little to no specials - May-Ling Shen and Jin Ke come to mind immediately. I agree with Steve. Immortals that can generate threat without relying heavily on specials are, in my opinion, better choices to play than those that require special cards to "do things". This also leave you open to use your special cards to play more toolbox to deal with potential opponent strategies, or to enhance your offense further. hi clique84, thanks for suggestions. i like the mechanic power that May-Ling has. However, multi-power seems very lacking/fleeting, even for the strongest of immortals (but Kern get's this and a little biatchie Nef kinda gets it, and Slan only if Berserk) Thanks. |
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Post by clique84 on Sept 20, 2014 9:16:46 GMT -5
I agree with Steve. Immortals that can generate threat without relying heavily on specials are, in my opinion, better choices to play than those that require special cards to "do things". This also leave you open to use your special cards to play more toolbox to deal with potential opponent strategies, or to enhance your offense further. hi clique84, thanks for suggestions. i like the mechanic power that May-Ling has. However, multi-power seems very lacking/fleeting, even for the strongest of immortals (but Kern get's this and a little biatchie Nef kinda gets it, and Slan only if Berserk) Thanks. If by "multi power" you mean playing multiple attacks, look at Jin Ke or Consone, perhaps. |
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Post by ultra on Sept 20, 2014 9:34:03 GMT -5
sorry. was not clear.
multi power blows.
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Post by ultra on Sept 20, 2014 11:01:20 GMT -5
AND ... omg... when did this happen?
why no one tell me?
2a.) May Do Effects
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These effects can be ....
*** If your opponent did not Attack during their last turn, you may Discard one Defense from your Hand during this Phase. ***
...
omg... so OMG.. so omg sheeshjahwatintheworldgoshnowaywat?
this is game changer.
so you don't have to consider as much on how you play your cards since hand lock is that much harder.
you can blindly wuss out on the fight and still get a free cycle.
deck build in terms of defence grids thrown in are not nearly as critical cuz you get a free cycle?
*sigh* anyhow, dunno to complain or not. just saw this and blew me away.
what other big changes from Type1?
this is kinda huge.
anyone have a list of "big changes" since 1998? hah.
omg omg omg.
yeah, y'all can laff, at me , with me whatever but why isn't like this in BOLD in the rule book?
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