Highlander 2E Constructed Southwest Regional
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Post by brendanparochelli on Apr 20, 2009 3:35:44 GMT -5
There is NOT always a clearly defined winner in Swiss. You haven't even specified which Swiss format you are using. Looks like you just made up your own pre-school version.
You only had 7 players, but you do not point out how you handle byes.
You are giving +2 for a head shot. Not every deck runs multiple or any head shots. Your scoring system gives head hunter decks a blatant advantage. Stall/Healer/Mill are meant to be viable strategies. Get used to it.
You lose your head you should be out of the tournament anyway. That should be the advantage of packing headshots. You still have not explained what happens when you lose a Q due to loss by head shot.
And of course the biggest problem being collusion is way to easy in small Swiss tournaments. 7 players. 4 are friends. The other 3 have little chance of winning if the friends collude. Judging by your demeanor so far I would not put it past you. At least the other 3 had a chance if elimination format was used.
There is ALWAYS a clearly defined winner in double elimination. The victor being the winner of the last game played when the Winner and Loser brackets meet. It fits Highlander motto of 'There can be only one'.
Elimination format is for grown ups. I suppose that is why all the good sports use it to measure who becomes champion.
Patented lol. ToM + Connor Slash + Lunge + Head Shot event. Four card combo that loses to any the gridded upper block, exerting for a Dodge, and numerous edges and events. Never saw anybody top deck a dodge 12 turns or hide behind upper guards.
Anyway, I hereby patent Connor Master Block + Connor Slash + Lunge + Exert with Connor Hilt and some allies in play. Unblockable head shot which you get a two card exertion to defend. Nobody but me ever thought of this. It's too complex.
I predict it will run rampant in Swiss headhunter tournaments where nobody packs Divine Intervention.
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zarth2k
Elder Immortal
"So lure him outside and take his head. Problem solved."
Posts: 265
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Post by zarth2k on Apr 20, 2009 4:09:10 GMT -5
OooooooK... speaking of ways to loose old players, and scare off new ones… Some one should really be locking or deleting this thread about now.
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Post by DNecaise on Apr 20, 2009 8:01:41 GMT -5
Pax people...PAX! It's only a game. Regionals or not. He thought he was doing what was best(I hope and think). Anytime 1 player quits- I shudder. If it wasn't done with malice or intent it was a mistake. But no one needs to be an ass about doing something wrong, either. I am not the most reasonable person at times but name calling on all sides and trying to prove who's a bigger ass doesn't help. If you did something wrong, admit it and move on. I'm sorry what's top prize at Worlds? $ 25,000 ? A title? Maybe a chance to get together with a bunch of fellow players on this board and play some HL. As my 5 year old niece tells me 'It's gonna be alright' somehow I must bend to the foresight and wisdom of a child who isn't wrapped up in stuff that doesn't matter. geezus, that kid is a genius. www.geocities.com/liamnecaise/OnlyaGame.jpgwww.geocities.com/liamnecaise/deadhorse.gif
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Post by swisherfan on Apr 20, 2009 9:26:46 GMT -5
There is NOT always a clearly defined winner in Swiss. You haven't even specified which Swiss format you are using. Looks like you just made up your own pre-school version. You only had 7 players, but you do not point out how you handle byes. You are giving +2 for a head shot. Not every deck runs multiple or any head shots. Your scoring system gives head hunter decks a blatant advantage. Stall/Healer/Mill are meant to be viable strategies. Get used to it. You lose your head you should be out of the tournament anyway. That should be the advantage of packing headshots. You still have not explained what happens when you lose a Q due to loss by head shot. And of course the biggest problem being collusion is way to easy in small Swiss tournaments. 7 players. 4 are friends. The other 3 have little chance of winning if the friends collude. Judging by your demeanor so far I would not put it past you. At least the other 3 had a chance if elimination format was used. There is ALWAYS a clearly defined winner in double elimination. The victor being the winner of the last game played when the Winner and Loser brackets meet. It fits Highlander motto of 'There can be only one'. Elimination format is for grown ups. I suppose that is why all the good sports use it to measure who becomes champion. Patented lol. ToM + Connor Slash + Lunge + Head Shot event. Four card combo that loses to any the gridded upper block, exerting for a Dodge, and numerous edges and events. Never saw anybody top deck a dodge 12 turns or hide behind upper guards. Anyway, I hereby patent Connor Master Block + Connor Slash + Lunge + Exert with Connor Hilt and some allies in play. Unblockable head shot which you get a two card exertion to defend. Nobody but me ever thought of this. It's too complex. I predict it will run rampant in Swiss headhunter tournaments where nobody packs Divine Intervention. Foundling...what did I say about adults talking? We have already discussed how the Swiss tournaments run at great length in other threads so I am not going to hold your hand through it. You can go browse through some old threads. Maybe when you have been on the boards more then a month you will realize that discussions were held prior to you arriving. I do know that they were more intelligent when you were not there though. I have played at the professional level of card games that make this one look like tiny. I am a certified judge in at least 7 games. I organized and posted the current regional dates. The group of players I play with our the best in the world with regards to class, integrity, and intelligence. Many players know me including Dallis. I would NEVER cheat. I cannot believe that you would even toss out a cheating/collusion card. It proves to me just how worthless your opinions are and that I am wasting valuable time acknowledging you. I won't make that mistake anymore. Tim: I should be banned? Just making sure that is what you think.
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Post by Vindelron on Apr 20, 2009 10:12:41 GMT -5
With due respect to all, my mates included, I think everyone needs to take a step back and realize that everyone is entitled to their opinion. It seems to me that each side should look at what the other brings to the table and walk a little while in those shoes.
I can appreciate the double elimination format for what it is, and would adhere to it should I choose to play at GenCon, but my fundamental problem with it is the lack of playtime it would engender. A new player that shows up to a card tournement and then gets his head taken in the first round is now told that he is out and has to go play in side games until the end results are finished. This to me would present one of two options: A) He gets the bug and decides to collect more cards for a more competitive deck or B) Gets discouraged and then quits because he only got a little bit of playing time. Personally, I would get annoyed and not want to play as much because that makes the game less recreational for me and more competitive. I choose to play this game as a hobby and not as a must win. But to have a player be knocked out of a tourney in round one is bothersome to me.
Swiss does have the flaw of taking a little long at times so clear cut time structure would have to be established. Games can take too long in both formats but with Swiss having more players retained this would present more of a problem. The difference at least is that each player is still in the tournement. They may not be jockeying for the top spots but at least they still get the feel of being in the tourney.
I do understand that the powers that be have the final say with how things are run and still enjoy the game as a recreational activity with my mates. I may disagree with some of the rulings that have been put forth but will adhere to them nonetheless. My only caution is that, with the current playerbase, alienating any players at this juncture could prove costly. With the game state the way it is currently, I see the fence being drawn and people leaving the game over things that could be addressed and made more concrete.
Just my two cents
Carlos
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zarth2k
Elder Immortal
"So lure him outside and take his head. Problem solved."
Posts: 265
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Post by zarth2k on Apr 20, 2009 10:52:31 GMT -5
With due respect to all, my mates included, I think everyone needs to take a step back and realize that everyone is entitled to their opinion. It seems to me that each side should look at what the other brings to the table and walk a little while in those shoes. I can appreciate the double elimination format for what it is, and would adhere to it should I choose to play at GenCon, but my fundamental problem with it is the lack of playtime it would engender. A new player that shows up to a card tournement and then gets his head taken in the first round is now told that he is out and has to go play in side games until the end results are finished. This to me would present one of two options: A) He gets the bug and decides to collect more cards for a more competitive deck or B) Gets discouraged and then quits because he only got a little bit of playing time. Personally, I would get annoyed and not want to play as much because that makes the game less recreational for me and more competitive. I choose to play this game as a hobby and not as a must win. But to have a player be knocked out of a tourney in round one is bothersome to me. Swiss does have the flaw of taking a little long at times so clear cut time structure would have to be established. Games can take too long in both formats but with Swiss having more players retained this would present more of a problem. The difference at least is that each player is still in the tournement. They may not be jockeying for the top spots but at least they still get the feel of being in the tourney. I do understand that the powers that be have the final say with how things are run and still enjoy the game as a recreational activity with my mates. I may disagree with some of the rulings that have been put forth but will adhere to them nonetheless. My only caution is that, with the current playerbase, alienating any players at this juncture could prove costly. With the game state the way it is currently, I see the fence being drawn and people leaving the game over things that could be addressed and made more concrete. Just my two cents Carlos Well Said! Incidentally, that’s what I was trying to say. Well… about 98% anyway.
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Post by barenakedladies on Apr 20, 2009 10:58:43 GMT -5
Elimination format is for grown ups. I suppose that is why all the good sports use it to measure who becomes champion. First off, no sport uses double elimination. Baseball runs off a best of 5 or 7 series. Single Elimination. Football. Single Elimination. Hockey, Basketball, everything. Single elimination. So I don't know what the point it is you are trying to make here, but it's a terrible one. Foundling -1 point. And of course the biggest problem being collusion is way to easy in small Swiss tournaments. 7 players. 4 are friends. The other 3 have little chance of winning if the friends collude. Judging by your demeanor so far I would not put it past you. At least the other 3 had a chance if elimination format was used. WE play card games in a friendly enviroment that wishes to include new players, unlike certain mid-west rules lawyers....*looks around*. The double elimination format is also flawed for collusion. I say to my buddy "Hey, the guy you are playing is a newbie. However your match is 50/50. I'm playing this broken Mako deck and have a 100 percent chance of mopping the floor with him. Lay down and I'll take him out next round." Foundling gets +1 point for looking up the word collusion however -2 points for being a retard and not seeing both sides to an argument clearly. You only had 7 players, but you do not point out how you handle byes. You lose your head you should be out of the tournament anyway. That should be the advantage of packing headshots. You still have not explained what happens when you lose a Q due to loss by head shot. One way to see if someone is a good debater is if they do their homework. Foundling gets -1 point right off the bat. There have been literally hundreds of threads about how to run a successful swiss format in highlander. Since we are not super cut throat and run tournaments where we have to worry about collusion too, we run absolutely friendly tournament, sure we have banter, but everyone tries to be as nice as possible. When someone in the tournament loses their head and has a quickening, the other player gets to use it for the rest of the tournament and gives it back and the end. That is how collections are made, along with friendships and new players. Byes are done like this: you get the win but you don't get any points in your differential. Therefor, it looks like this: 1-0 (0) Sure you got the win, but your tie-breakers will be terrible. Ugh. Another point taken away. Do your homework. There is NOT always a clearly defined winner in Swiss. You haven't even specified which Swiss format you are using. Looks like you just made up your own pre-school version. You are giving +2 for a head shot. Not every deck runs multiple or any head shots. Your scoring system gives head hunter decks a blatant advantage. Stall/Healer/Mill are meant to be viable strategies. Get used to it. There is ALWAYS a clearly defined winner in double elimination. The victor being the winner of the last game played when the Winner and Loser brackets meet. It fits Highlander motto of 'There can be only one'. Sure. You can make a deck with head shots. Sure you get an advantage in the tie-breakers. But what is stopping everyone else from throwing in that extra Upper Center Block? This, Foundling, is called strategy. Plus, to a new player, what is more exciting? Getting your head taken or getting milled out 3 times? -1 point because the Healer strategy is dumb. Hunter decks eat Healer decks and Healer decks fold under time, which they normally go to. Patented lol. ToM + Connor Slash + Lunge + Head Shot event. Four card combo that loses to any the gridded upper block, exerting for a Dodge, and numerous edges and events. Never saw anybody top deck a dodge 12 turns or hide behind upper guards. Anyway, I hereby patent Connor Master Block + Connor Slash + Lunge + Exert with Connor Hilt and some allies in play. Unblockable head shot which you get a two card exertion to defend. Nobody but me ever thought of this. It's too complex. I predict it will run rampant in Swiss headhunter tournaments where nobody packs Divine Intervention. It's patented because everyone uses Connor. It's only for newbie players who stumble on an amazing strategy and can't figure out what else to play. What he does works. Sorry if he doesn't play your cookie cutter decks. Your deck is ALSO a 4 card combo and requires me to attack you. If I was playing....oh I don't know....ANY cheese deck, I would take a long hard look at my attacks and a long hard look at Connor. You wouldn't even have a turn to pull off your 4 card combo. -1 for cookie cutter decks. Nobody here packs Divine Intervention because none of us here CARE about this game enough. This kind of nuts really makes me want to build the Mako, Chainsaw, Under the Color, Break Weapon, Dead End Ally/Cat Walk deck. I just want to see your foundling face start to cry as I break your weapon, take away your special cards and watch you try to block or dodge any head shots. You can yell impossible as much as you want through the interweb. It's happened before and it's happened on turn 2. +1 point for seeing the foundling cry. Do your homework. See how many points you have. UGH. Why am I still here?! I quit this game ages ago.
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Post by headlessone on Apr 20, 2009 11:15:58 GMT -5
All this crying and arguing is going no where. People calling people names on the internet /gasp. Its like this. You may not like or respect the midwest regional champs, they might not even like you. But there is one key everyone fails to remember. We will see the results of who is right and who is wrong.
The format will be double elimination as per the companies polices. The winner will be called and rightly so "The World Champ". Only when you play your decks against others from different regions and different tool boxes and still walk away on top can you call yourself the best. So we will see you there. And the design team better bring some tissues because i have a feeling some tears will flow when people find they have false delusions of their own greatness.
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Post by barenakedladies on Apr 20, 2009 11:19:31 GMT -5
The format will be double elimination as per the companies polices. Companies polices!?!? Show me where....ANYWHERE in the rules where it says that the official tournament of worlds is run through a double elim tournament?
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Post by 5thhorsemen on Apr 20, 2009 11:43:11 GMT -5
Actually had you done your homework you would have it stated by the design team that all regionals are to be double elimination. Even before that if you go into old threads you would find that in previous arguments over swiss v. double elmination that the weekly tournament can be run in whatever format deemed necessary by the organizer but official tournament such as championships are to be double elimination.
-1 for lack of study since you want to grade other people.
Now should it be in a rule book somewhere, maybe. Maybe the tournament organizers should have there hands tied to set formats in some sort of T.O. rulebook with clear cut policies on how to run what format and way to handle things such as collusion. They don't though and that is fine, so long as when the question arises they publicly make a statement which they have done.
Now for me I like my weekly swiss but am fully prepared to face double elimination in 2 weeks time.
"The Dude"
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webtroll
Ancient Immortal
There can be only one... braaaain...
Posts: 497
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Post by webtroll on Apr 20, 2009 11:53:06 GMT -5
I was avoiding this threat like the plague, but since The Dude has spoken, I suppose I can include the undead thoughts on this.
Josh is right that we run swiss weekly at the store. For our standard events we run it that way so that our 4-6 players each week get in as much play time as possible. We use head shots as tie breakers, but not losing a head. It works for that format, with that group.
In preparing for the Regional Champs/Qualifiers, we have been preparing for dealing with Double Elimination. We know that is the format it will be, The German Kid and I played it at GenCon and we think it works for that higher level of competition.
None of us consider the double elimination format a reason to quit the game. And we are a group that plays swiss for our weekly immortal training events -- with the blessings of the design team.
The only thing about this whole deal that is concerning to me is the amount of venom and name-calling that is being flung about like plastic beads on Bourbon Street. I actually take a lot of pride in telling people how much the Highlander crew of players is (for the most part) different than other games. A step up in camaraderie and sportsmanship. I think the lot of us are better than what is being displayed here.
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Post by swisherfan on Apr 20, 2009 12:02:10 GMT -5
Actually had you done your homework you would have it stated by the design team that all regionals are to be double elimination. Even before that if you go into old threads you would find that in previous arguments over swiss v. double elmination that the weekly tournament can be run in whatever format deemed necessary by the organizer but official tournament such as championships are to be double elimination. -1 for lack of study since you want to grade other people. Now should it be in a rule book somewhere, maybe. Maybe the tournament organizers should have there hands tied to set formats in some sort of T.O. rulebook with clear cut policies on how to run what format and way to handle things such as collusion. They don't though and that is fine, so long as when the question arises they publicly make a statement which they have done. Now for me I like my weekly swiss but am fully prepared to face double elimination in 2 weeks time. "The Dude" It is not stated here by HWR:
The tentative plan is to run regional world qualifiers and a regional championship for each region. The regional world qualifier winner and regional champion will have seats at the world's championship in their respective format. There will also be qualifiers at Gen-Con prior to the main event. Older players will remember that this is similar to the way it has been done in the past. The regions break down something like:
USA Midwest Region: TX, LA, OK, AR, KS, MO, IA, NE, MN USA Great Lakes Region: MI, WI, IL, IN, OH, PA, NY USA Northeast Region: WV, NJ, VT, RI, NH, ME, CT, MA, DE, MD USA Southeast Region: NC, SC, GA, FL, AL, MS, KY, VA, TN USA Southwest Region: HI, CA, NV, AZ, NM, CO, UT USA Northwest Region: AK, WA, OR, ID, MT, WY, ND, SD Europe Region: Australia Region: Asia Region: Canada Region: Africa Region: South America Region: Central America Region:
We ultimately would like each region to have a Regional World's Qualifier as well as a Regional Championship. The Regional Championships should hold titles for these formats:
Type Two Constructed Deck Type Two Lean and Mean Deck Type Two Sealed Deck Type One Constructed Deck Type One Lean and Mean
The Regional Qualifiers will be for Type Two format only. At Gen-Con, the qualifiers will also be for Type Two format only. Both of the Type One World's Championships will be open to all players. For the World Championships at Gen-Con, the titles to be fought for are:
2009 Type Two Constructed Deck Highlander World Championship 2009 Type Two Lean and Mean Deck Highlander World Championship 2009 Type Two Sealed Deck Highlander World Championship 2009 Type One Constructed Deck Highlander World Championship 2009 Type One Lean and Mean Highlander World Championship
This is the application of our vision. Now, what we need is for the tournament directors for each region to get together and figure out where and when these events can take place and post them in the calender. We would suggest keeping the Regional Championships separate from the Regional World Qualifier, but that is ultimately your choice. If this is a problem, then the tournament directors from each region can contact us by personal message via the Highlander Forum so we can help figure it out. Once a decision has been made for each region, send us the event information so we can be sure it gets posted on the Main Web Site as well as the Forum. Thank you for your cooperation in this.
Le Monteguard ,LLC Tim Small's post later in the Regional Cahmpionship thread did not have any mention of double elimination and it is not mentioned anywhere in the 4 pages of posts in the Regional Championship thread. So...it is not mentioned in the rules or on the thread where it should be. I think Wilson is very correct in his statement.
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Post by 5thhorsemen on Apr 20, 2009 12:31:19 GMT -5
First off sorry for dragging you in Zombie Joe. I just wasn't gonna stand idley by, its not in my nature.
Secondly a quote
This swisherfan states directly all regionals are supposed to be double elimination. In the previous multipage argument it was stated also that official tournaments such as qualifiers will or should be held in the double elimination format.
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Post by swisherfan on Apr 20, 2009 12:38:40 GMT -5
First off sorry for dragging you in Zombie Joe. I just wasn't gonna stand idley by, its not in my nature. Secondly a quote This swisherfan states directly all regionals are supposed to be double elimination. In the previous multipage argument it was stated also that official tournaments such as qualifiers will or should be held in the double elimination format. I got that...it is in the thread I started. I am saying that PREVIOUS to this thread that there was no mention that Regionals or ANY Highlander tournament at ANY level had to be run as double elimination. They are treating us like we made some huge mistake when it was clearly their lack of communication in multiple areas (rules and message boards) that led to us using a format that we wanted to use. Now I am getting collusion/cheating tossed my way for a mistake that is not mine at all. Oh, and my deck and my player group have also been insulted. I even am wondering if the people doing the insulting are on "The Design Team".
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Post by brendanparochelli on Apr 20, 2009 12:44:34 GMT -5
First off, no sport uses double elimination. Baseball runs off a best of 5 or 7 series. Single Elimination. Football. Single Elimination. Hockey, Basketball, everything. Single elimination. So I don't know what the point it is you are trying to make here, but it's a terrible one. Foundling -1 point. I never said they used double elimination. I specifically said they use ELIMINATION FORMAT. Best of seven is an elimination format. You lose the series you are eliminated. Like all elimination formats only the team or player that wins the final game played is the ultimate victor. Kind of like there are dozen methods of Swiss format there are multiple methods of running ELIMINATION format. There is no point in arguing if you cannot understand this simple fact. Also, don't feign hurt after calling people a retard, fool, or other personally slanderous comments in your previous posts. If you are going to argue you should have kept it to the awful Ramirez deck and the Swiss format. For the record, I have played Swiss. Our local tournaments even are run as Swiss. That is local though. People are mainly playing for fun. Regionals should be competitive. If you get knocked out early because you couldnt defend your head its not a big deal. You can always just play some friendly games or do some trading while the tournament progresses. It actually makes playing with Qs a bigger deal as well. So I guess I'm done other than maybe asking for a mailing address. I can prolly send everyone who played a DI event and upper center block. You can then replay your tournament double elimination style and see if your patented ' I own a pregame reshuffle premium' strat still works. Edit: I am not on the Design or Rules team not did I ever say I was. I am an idiot from the Midwest though.
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